New osCommerce Project Launches – Same as the Old ?
Recently, Rhea Anthony, widely known to long time osCommerce users as Vger and a former member of Harald Ponce de Leon’s osCommerce development team launched a bid to assume control of the osCommerce code base and community. She and a number of other major contributors to osCommerce have relocated their oscanswers.com forum to a new domain – http://www.oscommerceproject.org , and releasing a distribution based on the most recent osCommerce release 2.2 RC2B which they are calling osCommerce 2.0 Final.
That community members involved as long as this team can’t recall that the current osCommerce 2.2 development work was preceded by an osCommerce 2.1 release is a clear indicator of the necessity of this action if osCommerce is to survive as a project at all. 8+ years between releases is entirely too long.
In her first blog post as osCommerce Project leader, Rhea tells a bit about herself and comments on the reasons for this drastic action. If you have any interest in osCommerce at all, I strongly encourage you to read this post. It is an interesting description of one view of the osCommerce community from a member who has been persistent and energetic in contributing to others. But, it is one view.
The term “believer” has been a very powerful term in the osCommerce world in both positive and negative ways. I can easily sympathize with Rhea’s obvious disappointment at the disdain directed towards community members who claimed to be or were described as believers. Having been among those who were disparaged by groups of “osCommerce beleivers” because my own beliefs differed from their own, I also understand the disparagement. We all beleive in something. But some community members have and do beleive that the rest of us should beleive what they do and nothing more.
This lack of tolerance from and courtesy towards others is a deadly poison for any community. The cure begins with leadership. So, it is an encouraging step that Rhea has made the effort to establish regular communications via her blog early in the process of transforming the oscanswers forum into the oscommerce project site. Keep it up, Rhea. I can’t say I’m a great blogger either. But I can say it does get easier with time. Along the way, I hope to see you create a more open and accepting osCommerce community. Towards that end, here are a few suggestions:
- Don’t settle for a development team. Build a development community whose activities are open to all. When viewpoints differ, establish working groups to represent those viewpoints with code that can prove or disprove their theories. This is the one of the most powerful uses of branches. They feed the tree, they don’t starve it.
- Build a documentation group. Insist on performance from them, and cooperation with them so that technical documentation is available to all. You can’t build consensus without it.
- Open the community to discussion of related projects in some way. No project can benefit from code comparison and evaluation when the discussions are splintered across dozens of forums. At the very least, branches should be able to post links and route discussion accordingly.
- While disparagement and exclusion of community members should be avoided like the plague, the same can not be said of code contributions. Once API documentation is published, contributions which fail to comply with coding standards should be ruthlessly separated from the rest or even deleted. Establishing separate management of experimental API code is essential.
- Open development discussions. Smoke filled rooms are great for monopolists. They have no place in Open Source. So what if crackers can see your plans. It is not like they can’t read your code. Keep your code discussion lively and take some time to explain things. Knowledge is power, but its like manure – its got to be spread to be effective.
At this early stage, it is hard to see much difference between this new osCommerce Project and the old one. Time will tell, and I’m sure the differences Rhea mentioned will become apparent soon. The sooner, the better.
It is good to see new osCommerce releases, and active development. As one old Democrat to another, I’m happy to bid the new osCommerce Project welcome to the open source ecommerce community.
10 Responses to “New osCommerce Project Launches – Same as the Old ?”
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January 3rd, 2009 at 9:56 am
By way of follow up:
I’ve been tracking the osCommerce Project Forums during December. There are a few discussions of development related posts in the read-only “Team Forum” going on. Several new team members have been added.
Rhea seems to be pretty open to “outside” comments. It does remain to be seen how effective the project can be with development related discussions thus fragmented – but it is definitely nice to see some active development being done on the osCommerce 3.0 frame work.
April 9th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
David, you do a disservice to yourself and to open source by openly supporting this so called “new osCommerce project”. I believe you need to seriously consider the issues.
Far from Vger being “open” to outside criticism, she now immediately bans anybody who dares to bring up the most important issues.
Thankfully there is a new website dedicated to the open discussion of them:
http://newoscommerceproject.org
April 11th, 2009 at 7:52 am
The osCommerce Project is nothing like the old, it is far worse and a disgrace to the open source community and to osCommerce users. Rhea has been asked repeatedly by senior osCommerce users to “fork” the project in a legal and respectful manor but has repeatedly told them that their opinion means nothing to her. She is determined to carry on her course of stealing the osCommerce trademarked name, stealing the osCommerce copyrighted code and invalidating the GLP license bringing her entire user base into her legal issues.
She is not out to “help” osCommerece as she suggests, if she carries on her current path she will destroy the loyalty base that osCommerce has spent 10 years building.
April 15th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Worse?
It is rather difficult to see how anyone can bring more disgrace to the Open Source community than the osCommerce project already has. 8 years without a single full FINAL release has to mark some sort of record for an Open Source distribution with the global popularity of osCommerce. A perpetual lack of meaningful organization, consistent failure to complete documentation of code architecture and standards and the constant destruction of any attempts to communicate dissenting views made a joke of the osCommerce project long before Rhea Anthony stepped forward to offer a chance for the community to stand behind effective leadership. Anyone in firm possession of both common sense and loyalty to osCommerce will fervently pray that the new project is nothing like the old one.
Trademark?
What trademark? It has been the Holy Mantra of those who represent themselves as the leaders of the osCommerce project for over a decade that trade is evil, that posts which mention specific participants in trade should be deleted on sight and anyone who identifies themselves as being in trade banned from the forums. They certainly have kept any sign of the osCommerce code being used in trade well hidden. That being the case, there is NO CASE for trademark infringement that will stand up in any court on the globe. No trade, no trademark.
Copyright?
Well, perhaps – except for one not so small detail. That copyright is held by, wait – you guessed it – the osCommerce Project ! Harald Ponce de Leon has insisted for years (and in fact as recently as THIS MONTH) that he has never intended to remain the senior developer and that osCommerce belongs to the community. So, as bona fide members of the community Rhea, Bobby and their team have as much right to that copyright as anyone.
In staking a claim before the world, Rhea has done something no one else has managed to accomplish in the history of the project. She has forced a vote on the leadership of the osCommerce project.
Good for her. Whether her teams efforts succeed or not, democracy should matter, and the strongest code win. Which is no disgrace to Open Source at all.
April 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
What makes you think I have not considered the issues? I myself was banned from the osCommerce forums some time ago. Seems the “Old” osCommerce Project also objects to anyone bringing up important issues. So, if Rhea exhibits an autocratic managerial style, she certainly is proceeding in accordance with project tradition – and I certainly am familiar with the project and the issues.
That said, the only folks I’ve seen banned so far are those who persist in expounding an utterly incorrect concept of the legalities of trademarks and copyrights. A good leader listens long enough to establish whether or not an input is worthwhile or not – then stop throwing good time after bad concepts and move on. Frankly, my own style would be to lock the threads and leave them there, while inviting users to move on to some productive participation. Won’t say I saw any sign of that, but I didn’t particularly waste time looking either.
In any case, the posts I’ve seen so far on newoscommerceproject.org start to move towards some reasonable interpretation of copyright, trademark and the GPL while missing the entire point of the situation. This is an issue which exists within the osCommerce community – not outside of it. It is time people stopped confusing forum membership with community membership.
As for the approach itself – well, a focused site dedicated to slinging mud just sounds like the same old osCommerce misleadership story to me. After listening to it for a decade, all I have to say is tell it to the Marines….
David
April 16th, 2009 at 10:48 am
@David
The pathology of your responses is quite remarkable. I really think you need to learn how to “let go” so y our thinking can be a little clearer. I have never seen anybody banned from the osCommerce forums without very good reason, so you need to reconsider and come to terms with why you were, then your views will not be so colored by old grudges.
Many times I have read rants such as yours about osCommerce not making a “FINAL” release as justification for the actions of Rhea Anthony and her team from Ecommerce Ventures Ltd. This is just FUD and you know it. There is no such thing as a “final release” in software development, as any developer knows. osCommerce has in fact made many releases in the past eight years, so you are just spreading misinformation to try and pad up your views.
Your statements regarding trademarks are again pure FUD. Please show to the World where it has been the “holy mantra” of osCommerce that “trade is evil”. This is pure nonsense, plain and simple. That osCommerce have rules preventing commercial posts to their forums is perfectly normal and the same can be found on many forums worldwide, including Rhea Anthony’s forums. You also show your ignorance of both trademark law and the business activities of osCommerce. While “trade” does not strictly require the exchange of money, osCommerce has nevertheless for many years engaged in commercial transactions. That you are not privy to these does not make your viewpoint correct. osCommerce is a trademark and has the court judgments to prove it. That is not widely known, however it is a fact beyond dispute.
Your statements regarding copyright are again FUD, with nothing whatsoever to back them up. Do you expect people to believe you, just because you say something is so? The osCommerce copyright belongs to osCommerce, not the “osCommerce community”. Democracy has absolutely nothing to do with the matter and here it is that all your arguments fall completely to pieces. Copyright is not something that can be reassigned by the “democratic” vote of people who are not copyright holders. Let me ask you, if the osCommerce copyright belongs to the osCommerce community, then why did both Rhea Anthony and Bobby Easland concede (more than once) that the osCommerce logo is copyright to osCommerce? If the software copyright belongs to the community, then so does the logo copyright. By conceding the logo copyright, they also unwittingly concede the software copyright. They are simply not as smart as they believe themselves to be.
http://newoscommerceproject.org is not at all designed for “mud slinging”. It is designed to provide clear and valuable information that counters the kind of misinformation that people of your ilk like to proliferate.
If you or anybody else is unhappy with any aspect of osCommerce, then you are perfectly free to fork the project and take it on whatever path you wish, just as others have done. This is the beauty of open source. This is also the only legal and ethical path to take. To steal the trademark and copyright of osCommerce is criminal, nothing less.
Matti
April 17th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Well, Matti, you’ve certainly managed to validate my position pretty well. Thanks!.
Rant? FUD? Pathology? Sounds like mud to me.
I posted my opinion, on my own blog – which I’m entitled to do. I notice you don’t dispute the lack of a release, the ongoing beta nature of osCommerce, the moribund state of the project or any fact mentioned in my post. If “osCommerce” has been involved in trade, don’t you think it might be legal, moral or ethical to disclose that fact?? I believe Harald’s statements to the affect that osCommerce is held in trust for or belongs to the community at large are well documented in his own forums. If that is not the case, I’m certainly not to blame for the general impression that it is. You’ll have to look closer to home there.
Grudge? Sorry – don’t have one! Got over that long ago. Forking osCommerce? Been there, done that.
No such thing as a “final release”? Grab yourself some Ex-Lax ™ buddy. Software may be ever evolving and constantly updated, but there are thousands if not millions of developers around the world who have not been afraid to put a fork in a release and call it finished. How many people are buying Windows Vista ™ Beta today??
Perhaps a large part of what is wrong with osCommerce is the fact that democracy has nothing to do with it. Thanks for clarifying that.
Democracy is about people facing facts, discussing them awhile, then making a decision based on the facts as they see them and living with the results together. All of which sounds much better than what osCommerce has done in the past. Just keep in mind, democracy always has something to do with it. If nothing else, people can always vote with their feet….
April 17th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
@David
No, its not “mud” at all, but rather an intelligent observation.
“Pathology”? Absolutely. Everything that you write reveals a deep seated grudge against osCommerce. You are not over it at all.
“FUD”? Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Absolutely. This is a common acronym for the kind of crud that you write. All of your criticisms lack a very basic fundamental to good argument: references. What you write is not just “opinion”, but rather is designed to mislead people by making wide ranging statements without any reference to facts. If you wish to write that somebody holds a particular view, or that such and such a situation is fact, then post the references to prove it. I know that you can’t and that is why what you write can be safely labeled as FUD or a rant.
To say that osCommerce is moribund is a lie. A simple look shows how false your statement is.
Nowhere is it stated by osCommerce that osCommerce belongs to the community. If that were the case, then they would take down the trademark and copyright pages.
As for a final release. Why are you so insistent on a final release? osCommerce is continuing to develop and support version 2 and why shouldn’t they? What do we see on the other site? A half assed “final” release that is nothing but a disgrace. osCommerce 2 has been production stable for years, so what is your problem with that? That it continues to develop? Why do you have a problem with that? Alpha, beta, zeta. What difference does it make what it is named? None.
osCommerce owes you nothing, their software is distributed for free. You can even begin your own project with it. This is one of your biggest misconceptions, you have no right to demand or expect anything from osCommerce whatsoever. If you are not happy with that, then do your own thing.
You remind me of others, who’s own forks were a failure and now wish to feed off osCommerce any way they can.
No, democracy has nothing to do with it. Go and ask any CEO and he will tell you the same. To think that any business should open itself up to some kind of “public democracy” is ridiculous. Perhaps you should move to some country with a name that begins with “The People’s Republic of…”
osCommerce is under no obligation to reveal its finances to you, however that such exist is common knowledge and easy to see if you care to look.
It is only your sad state of mind that allows you to think that anything I say validates any of your opinions. Read this carefully:
I don’t agree with anything that you say.
April 30th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Matti,
The number of misconceptions you offer up here as reasoning just boggles the mind. Lets take this in reverse order.
Validating and agreeing are not the same and it is in no way necessary that you agree with another persons statements for those statements to be validated by your own. It is sufficient that they support the original assertions by their content or tone even in a negative fashion.
In a free society, democracy certainly does have something to do with business operations. Businesses have owners, and those owner have votes as to the course the business should take, or at least as to who gets to manage operations. Employees in a free society do have a limited voting right. They can work to instantiate the managements plan, or they can quit. Customers certainly have democratic rights — they can vote for the product by buying it, or against it by buying an alternative product. These elements always exist – they are universal conditions which may be shaped to an organizations benefit, or detriment but never successfully ignored.
osCommerce owes me nothing? I never argued that the osCommerce project owed me anything – so, this is just logical sediment..
I insist on a final release? Not from the osCommerce project. I stated that a very significant portion of the buyers who form a software market expect periodic full releases of software to occur. That terms such as “beta”, “Milestone” and “Release Candidtate” are used to denote that a software distribution is a matter of industry practice – not my opinion or yours. I do find it laudable that the new project has put their reputations behind a decision and deplorable that the traditional project has not and I have said this as well. The first statement I hold to be a self evident fact readily apparent to anyone who has listened in the marketplace. The latter is my own opinion – but in no way a demand. That is your own embellishment and yet more logical sediment.
Trademarks, copyrights and project ownership? Well, it is certainly correct that the traditional website never specifically states that the software is owned by the community. Neither does it state anywhere that the software is the sole property of Harald Ponce de Leon. Neither does it identify any other owner. The trademark policy refers to “we” and “our” but never identifies who “we” and “our” might be. The copyright notice page assigns the copyrights solely to Harald Ponce de Leon. I would say this fairly supports an assertion that project ownership is murky at best. Which brings us to the definition of moribund…
Moribund – may be defined as either: Approaching death; about to die; expiring or Almost obsolete, nearing an end. If one supports a position in which there is a separation between the community and the project proper (as you seem to argue for at least some purposes), it is difficult to escape a conclusion that the project itself is or has been moribund. Need it stay so? Of course not. The fact that Harald has since my initial publication of this article released a distribution which may be supported on a PHP 5 base for some time and in some fashion better than the previous release does not change the fact that osCommerce maintainability has been slipping for some time and improvements in usability have been few and far between in terms of contributions by the project itself. Those who would argue that the community IS the project (as Harald seems to in his recent posts pointing to the 2007 to 2008 addon posts as a sign of life in ‘osCommerce’), might point to the Addon’s statistics to argue that the project is not moribund, though in the absence of the minimum 3 years of data needed to establish trending that is a weak reed at best.
September 5th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
So David, I think its time this was all updated.
Please tell the whole World what happened with the osCommerce project and trademark/copyright issues.
Please also update the World on the thriving true osCommerce Project.
Maybe it would also be good to tell everybody about osQuantum and what happened with that?
P.S. Please learn how to spell “believe”